"Since this part is a bit confusing, I will bring it back to the committees for discussion."
I think what's confusing is the "can't". It basically says, well, that users *can't* delete works they've posted in collections.
If what you meant was collection maintainers would *prefer* users not delete their fics, that is a completely different thing. And, frankly, something that doesnt really fall within the purview of the TOS. It's nothing more than an interpersonal issue between users.
These revisions are just clarifying the status quo, right? And currently it's perfectly possible to delete works posted in collections, even in gift exchanges. Are there plans to change that?
I'm not sure what the confusion is on this point? It seems more of a contractual thing between users is being clarified - and it's not at all onerous? It's... reasonable. It's a matter of what you're agreeing to do, and not being allowed to "back out" of agreements that are SECONDARY to hosting on the archive in general, but still would be considered legally binding anyway?
What I mean is: You do not ever HAVE to add something to a Collection, nor are you obligated to Gift a fic.
But, if you do choose to add something to a Collection, according to the TOS, you are of course agreeing to the terms that everyone else who contributes to that Collection agrees to and IF IN THAT PARTICULAR COLLECTION, the rules say "submissions are final", then, well, as it would be elsewhere in the world, you would not be able to revoke the submission. It's just them clarifying that if you AGREE to the terms of a Collection, you can't try to violate those terms later on. But in ANY OTHER area of publishing/arts/what have you, "submissions are final" means exactly that, so...this isn't really onerous at all. It's just normal. And in fact, if you find it embarrassing later and do not want to be associated with it (the major reason to formally Orphan a work, let's be real), you can Orphan it so that your name is no longer associated with it. You just can't literally go back on your word, your word in this case being "yes I agree that this submission is final". Again, there is NOTHING in this that is onerous, it's just requiring you to be aware that when things say "submissions are final", they're final. Literally everywhere else in the world would hold you to that, so...yeah.
And as for Gift Fic being non-deletable, it seems that their logic is that it's sort of equivalent, in that, you have AGREED, openly, to Gift this work to the person, which in the case of fic obviously means "make available for their enjoyment". By trying to remove it from the archive later, you would be going back on the (implied) word of making it available to them. Think of it like this: if you Gift something like a car, you can't just take it back without permission, right? It's implicit in the act of Gifting something, anything, that it isn't something you are going to demand back - otherwise that would be a Loan, not a Gift.
There is nothing in the TOS that said you can't edit works that are Gifted or part of a Collection (though I imagine the latter would be a matter of the Collection's rules?), so it's not like you're stuck with not being able to change it, from the sounds of it? They do still give you the option to Orphan if you do not want to be associated with it that badly.
I could see how some people might feel edgy about not being able to remove things later but...really, it's not unreasonable to ask these things. If you're THAT leary of losing your right to remove it from the Archive, then it seems the easy thing is to not FORMALLY mark it as part of a Collection that would disallow that, or as a Gift. You can still "gift" a fic without formally Gifting it in terms of the Archive's posting mechanics, you know; just tell the person you made it for them and link them to it.
The only issue I can see arising is for Gift Fic that was made prior to this change in ToS, but...it sounds like you could probably bring it up with Abuse Team (the people who control what stays up on the Archive and would have the ability to remove things), and hypothetically get it removed, on the logic that when you posted it, you did so under a different contract (TOS). I'm sure that'd be on a case by case basis, but it's not impossible I'd imagine, especially if you chose to do so when these changes are fresh.
Yeah, okay, except you missed the part where you literally can delete a gift fic and fics in collections. Absolutely nothing is preventing it. It's possible.
So let's look at what they probably actually meant: "You're not allowed to delete your work in these circumstances." An author has zero obligation to keep their work online, no matter how much someone else might want it to be there; if the recipient wants to keep it so much, they can download it.
The Organization for Transformative Works makes such a big deal out of being there to protect fan authors' rights. But the right to remove your fic is also a right, unless and until Ao3 adds a clause saying something like "by posting your work on our site you grant us a worldwide non-exclusive license to host your work in perpetuity", which I doubt is likely to happen.
You seem not to understand a few very key points here. (Apologies ahead of time for CAPSLOCK EMPHASIS; HTML is being fussy for me rn so it's there in place of italics/bold)
First: "except you missed the part where you literally can delete a gift fic and fics in collections. Absolutely nothing is preventing it. It's possible" is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I'm not "missing" anything, because this has nothing to do with what you can or cannot "literally do", functionally, and everything with what you are AGREEING to do (this is, after all, the Terms of Service, not the "actual description of functionality of the site").
"An author has zero obligation to keep their work online, no matter how much someone else might want it to be there; if the recipient wants to keep it so much, they can download it."
Nope, wrong. Sorry but legally, you are wrong. An author of a work when they ORIGINATE it is under "zero obligation" to do anything, because they have yet to use any of their rights under copyright law, and yet to cede any.
However, the moment you start doing things with your work, is the moment you choose to alter your remaining rights and IF YOU CHOOSE TO SUBMIT TO SOMETHING THAT SAYS SUBMISSIONS CANNOT BE REVOKED, then guess what? You are agreeing to a CONTRACT. That says, you know, you cannot revoke your submission. "Submissions are final" is a common and unambiguous, legally-binding statement.
I don't know what is so hard to understand about that part: if you willingly submit to a COLLECTION - not the Archive in general, specifically an individual Collection - which says "submissions are final" (which, you know means non-take-back-able), then you are CEDING THE RIGHT to take it back. Full. Stop. That's how it works literally everywhere. Magazines? Film competitions? Yup, yup, they'd interpret it the same way. You aren't at all being forced to keep your works up in general; you're only being required to follow YOUR OWN AGREEMENT, that YOU made, upon submission of those particular works, that you CHOSE to submit, to specific Collections that say: "all submissions are final".
Really, all the Archive is saying is that they don't endorse PEOPLE BREAKING A CONTRACT. That's exactly what you're agreeing to when you submit to a Collection! A private contract, between yourself and the person(s) running the Collection. The reason you can still "literally" remove such works from such Collections, is probably to allow for, say, cases where the people running the Collection do, in fact, allow you to remove it, despite the fact that, legally, you agreed to give up that right.
Stop implying that you automatically retain all rights no matter what you do with a work - that isn't how copyright WORKS. Sometimes, your own voluntary actions DO change and remove some of your rights, and it's not good to let people think they can just...ignore that. Because that can and has and will bite people in the ass in other ways if they don't know how copyright works.
For instance, just as an example, you know how AO3 allows "Original Works"? Well, guess what? If you publish an Original Work to the Archive, it's PUBLISHED. This means that if you want to give or sell the First Publication Rights to say, a magazine, guess what? You can't! Because you already gave up that right, to the Archive, when you initially posted it; even if you hosted it only on your own website, if it were publicly-viewable at any point whatsoever, you wouldn't be able to sell "First Publication Rights" to anybody, ever again, because you already USED those rights.
You probably think that example is irrelevant, but it's not, because I'm pointing out that no, there IS no such thing as "zero obligation" once you do anything at all with your work that involves OTHER PEOPLE, including just posting it where it can be seen, but ESPECIALLY when you submit it to a "submissions final" situation.
Gift Fic is a potentially more complex situation, but the Collections thing is not.
The reason you can still "literally" remove such works from such Collections, is probably to allow for, say, cases where the people running the Collection do, in fact, allow you to remove it, despite the fact that, legally, you agreed to give up that right.
You know they could always put an option in the collection settings for a maintainer to toggle, right? "Allow users to delete or remove submitted works: Yes/No."
That said (and yes, I'm ignoring your hugely irrelevant tangent; giving up first rights is something I'm aware of, thank you, and it's why I don't post original works here), how many collections are there with "submissions are final" clauses? Is this common enough to warrant being laid out in the TOS? I'm actually not aware of even one. The closest I know of are collections that say "If you delete your fic after submitting it we won't allow you to participate in the future," which is very different.
"That says, you know, you cannot revoke your submission. "Submissions are final" is a common and unambiguous, legally-binding statement." You make a good point here about this being a contract similar to other forms of publishing. I hadn't thought of it that way.
The problem is that statement may be legally common and clear to professionals (though I don't know enough about it personally to say so) but it means nothing to lay people. If I were posting my work to a collection and saw Submissions Are Final I would have no idea that meant I couldn't later delete it, therefore my informed consent in entering the contract would be weakened. No one expects to need a law consult before posting to the AO3, but many new writers would seek advice when entering their first professional contract, so they should reasonably be expected to understand a legal contract. I already know this rule exists because I read the TOS a long time ago, but a lot of people never read the TOS and reasonably wouldn't expect this to be the case. The wording *on these collection posting forms* needs to be clearer: "Once a work is submitted to this collection it CANNOT be deleted from the archive ITSELF, not just this collection. Please submit with care." Or something like that.
I'm not getting into this discussion in general, but I just wanted to point out "I didn't know, because I didn't read the ToS" isn't really a defense for anything.
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